https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/in-pictures-67946123.amp
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| No permission to post this but I will happily take it down on request. |
Came across the above photo on the BBC site (see link). It’s a picture of a farmers’ protest on a bridge over the Elbe at Torgau, Saxony. Torgau itself is on the left bank as you head downstream (west at this point). It’s striking how wide the river is this far from the estuary. May not be a surprise to anyone else but it was to me.
To coin a phrase from Saving Private Ryan, ‘that makes any town on this river prime real estate’. A quick glance at a map shows the old city centre still has the shape of the gunpowder era ramparts.
Post Script
Especially for a Disgruntled Fusilier, a shot of the Elbe at Lobositz (Lovesick in Czech) looking up towards the Lobosch (Lovoš):
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| Obviously not as mighty as the river by Torgau, but significant nonetheless. |
I did take a 'drive' down from the saddle between the Lobosch and Homolka mound down towards Lobositz on Google Streetview as Steve suggested. It's difficult to see much with modern road signs etc. One thing that is obvious, looking north from Lobositz is how far away the Lobosch is - our toy soldiers, out of scale for the ground scale, diminish distances as the late, great Paddy Griffith noted in 'The Case Against Toy Soldiers' nearly 40 years ago in Miniature Wargames.
It's always great to post comparisons to real life terrain in order to get an appreciation of the military problem (or even better to personally walk the ground!)
ReplyDeleteBonus points if you post a picture of the Elbe at Lobositz :)
That said you can also hop onto Google Street view and "drive" the attack route that the Prussians took in attacking at Lobositz and the area that the Austrian Army occupied to your front opens up before you as you come down the slope and its MASSIVE. playing on a 6x4 table just cannot give you that sense of how big these engagements were.
Thanks for posting this!
I might give that a try. I always think of Lobositz as a fairly small battle with relatively constrictive terrain, so to see the ground open up as huge would be instructive.
DeleteYou’re right about walking the ground. Even if you’re not on a battlefield, walking outdoors you can look at terrain and how people can be out of view in fairly ‘flat’ ground, or how difficult it can be walking up a muddy slope unladen.
Chris
A bit of serendipity with this photo, Chris. Having thoughts of the Spring 1813 campaign in mind, the French brought along a pontoon train for just this purpose. That is, throwing a bridge across the Elbe in this vicinity. In game terms, I usually see pontoons go up around Meissen to the SE of Torgau.
ReplyDeleteI was thinking about a pontoon bridge across there. It would take a lot of boats!
DeleteA trip up the Elbe through Saxony in to Czechia is on my to do/bucket list.
Chris
Napoleon referred to the Elbe as "The Rhine of Prussia" in terms of its strategic importance.
ReplyDeleteI did not know he said that Peter. Makes sense.
DeleteThe Elbe has a ‘twin’ in the Oder, which gave Prussia an eastern route not Central Europe from the Brandenburg heartland.
Chris
We oft forget how small our rivers are compared to those in Europe, talk less of the US. When visiting Linz in Austria, where the Danube is quite far inland, it is still as wide as the Thames in central London, if not more so. How they kep the pontoon boats in place on the Elbe et al pre motors, I'd love to know as it would be one hell of an engineering feat.
ReplyDeleteWow. That is wide. I can’t remember how big it looked at Vienna. Last time I was there 7 years ago I didn’t see it.
DeleteWith you on the engineering feat.
Chris
Surprise to me too btw.
ReplyDeleteAlan Tradgardland
Thanks for the link to the Paddy Griffiths opinion re Toy Soldiers - the images of the actual article were too small for me to read it but I read the accompanying comment on the blog and agree with them - playing with toy soldiers ISD the primary interest of most wargamers, I believe - studying tactical solutions to real world military problems realistically takes a very distant second - otherwise, we would just all do old fashioned style Kriegspiel or play boardgames....
ReplyDeleteHi Keith, wasn’t the image clear enough even when you clicked on it? It worked for me. If not I might have a go at posting it myself if I can find my copy. It’s well worth reading the article.
DeleteI agree that most of us are into playing with toy soldiers because of the spectacle. Not to say the other reasons aren’t important. My view is that since that article was written, possibly partly because of the points it and other articles from the 80s made, rules have changed in an attempt to model fog and friction. This partly addressing some of the points.
Kriegspiel is so slow it makes 1970s era WRG rules seem like rolling marbles at you soldiers. And therein lies its limitation.
Chris
On a similar note, before I finished work they sent me to Bratislava for a meeting and I was impressed at how wide (and swift flowing) the Danube was.. the big European rivers would have been significant obstacles even in the machine age..
ReplyDeleteI must have crossed the Danube by Bratislava on the way from Vienna to Nové Mesto, but I don’t remember it. I was dozing in the back of a car, following a crazy 9 day itinerary.
DeleteChris
The castle of Torgau is such a nice building. I can only recommend to visit the museum. From there you can see some remnants of fortifications at the Elbe river.
ReplyDeleteIt’s my dream to do a trip up the Elbe, from Saxony to Bohemia, so if I ever do it I’ll make sure to stop off at Torgau.
DeleteChris